Real Life Healing

Zetta Thomelin
Hello. I am Zetta Thomelin, and I am here today with singer Rebecca Robinson. Hi Rebecca.

Rebecca Robinson
Hi Zetta. Nice to see you today.

Zetta Thomelin
I just wanted to talk to you about your experience. Rebecca started her career in country music, was classically trained, and has worked across many different genres, performing at high-profile events such as the Birmingham Tattoo. We met when Rebecca had become very unwell and her life had been taken off course. I don't want to dwell too much on the difficult period, because we want to talk about recovery. But for people to really understand what you have been through, perhaps you could give us a brief portrait of what you were experiencing around the time we met.

Rebecca Robinson
I had just lost my father in late 2019. I was extremely close to him, and we had a very deep connection. It was shortly after that, getting towards the end of the year - he passed in September - and by Christmas I started experiencing some neurological issues. People were saying, "Are you eating well?" I was still doing my performances, going out and doing what I love. Then we got into the New Year of 2020, and lockdown came in March. People kept saying, "She's having a bit of a breakdown," and they kept using this word - "What is wrong with her? It's because of the loss of her dad." And I kept saying, "There is something wrong with my head. I am getting this dreadful spinning sensation, and it will not stop." That is the thing I need to clarify - it never stopped. It was chronic. We went through some really difficult times, and it wasn't until August 2020 that we eventually got me to London, to Harley Street, to see doctors who had any understanding of what was actually going on neurologically. We found a wonderful doctor called Dr Sirathirian, who specialises in neurological issues, and he identified what was happening.

I never use labels or dwell on terminology, but I wanted to give people some context. I always felt the terminology wasn't quite right anyway, because in my experience there were no headaches. All I felt was completely out of control. I had dreadful, constant spinning - like being on a waltzers that never stopped. I had eye problems, constant shaking, I couldn't eat, I couldn't swallow, and it had affected the back of the brain where the fight-or-flight response sits. Without going into too much detail, that is where things had got to. I was told that if I was ever going to progress and get better, I would need to work through it myself - through balance exercises, getting out, reducing caffeine and sugar, and simply getting back out into the world.

I don't believe there are no cures for anything, but at the time I was told this was going to be a long road, and that put real fear into me. I had been through months and months of torment, and now we had a name for it. At that point I hadn't yet met you, so I carried on doing what I could, trying to find my way back to some kind of normal life. There was no singing - that was completely out of the question. Even going out for a walk was terrifying. Everything was just dreadful.

My life had unfortunately come to a complete stop. But the reason we are talking today is that I want this story to help people - especially someone like me, who had been very much out in the public eye, not in a huge way, but as a local artist who had travelled around the country performing across all sorts of genres, and who loved every moment of it. To go from being that person - writing, creating, doing everything I loved - to not being able to do any of it, left me asking: who am I?

Zetta Thomelin
And that is such an important point, Rebecca. Who am I? Your identity gets stripped away when you are seriously ill. You were Rebecca Robinson the singer, and if that is taken away - something that has been such a central part of your life - who are you? I think what you have just described also highlights something really significant. When you are ill and trying to understand what is wrong, particularly with a neurological condition, it can be very hard for anyone to identify what is happening, because it cannot be seen. And then you finally get a diagnosis, a label, and a doctor tells you it is going to be a long road to recovery. That is not always helpful, is it? Doctors are doing their best, and I am not being critical, but the truth is that every individual responds differently. What you needed most, in that dark place of relentless suffering - and it is relentless; unless you have lived it, it is very hard to understand what that is like day after day, with no end in sight - was hope. And I think that is what your story offers to anyone watching today. That you can be in that place, and things can change.

When we met, I think the fact that all of this had followed the loss of your father was significant. You had a physiological problem - that is not in question - but there were also psychological elements that had made you more vulnerable to it. You needed to process that grief, rebuild your confidence in your body, rebuild your belief in yourself, and find some faith that you could reclaim your life. That is what we found ourselves working on together. We used metaphors, suggestions, affirmations, and practical lifestyle steps to support that process of recovery. And as someone who has had the privilege of witnessing that recovery, I feel as though I have been on this journey with you - a cheerleader on the sidelines. What I have seen is quite remarkable. You have come back to life, and in many ways bigger and better than before. Your creativity has flourished. You are writing again, performing again, and you are playing the guitar. You told me a few weeks ago that you played the guitar in a recording studio, which you had never done before. Something has emerged from that place of suffering. So perhaps you could say a little about the journey from there to here - how your sense of identity has evolved, and what that has felt like?

Rebecca Robinson
I think the best way to describe it is the distance between lying in bed every day wondering whether I would ever live a normal life again, and the place I am in now - with the knowledge I have gained along the way, including through the suffering. I won't deny that, because all the time I resisted it, I suffered more. In some ways it was my ego - the sense of who I had been, the health I felt I no longer had. I kept wanting to fight against it. Surely this isn't right. Why me? I still had dreams and aspirations as a singer. I am 56, but those dreams were still very much alive. And all of a sudden I was thinking - well, what now?

From that place of lying in bed - anyone who knows me knows I love Disney, I have even recorded Disney albums - I used to lie there every single day thinking, "Will I ever get my life back?" And if I fast-forward to now, and I look at the girl I was then - and in my eyes she was a girl compared to the woman I see now - it was almost as though I was a child in a woman's body. I had been fortunate enough not to have experienced great loss or serious difficulties in my life. I had had extremely loving parents, and my father and I were very close right up until the end. He would ask if I had petrol in the car, offer to check the oil. That was the kind of relationship we had. And then suddenly he was gone, and we were all in lockdown, and I was in my own private lockdown too. And then, thankfully - I think I met you around four years ago - you were able to pick up on where I had got to, and take me from a place where I was just about managing each day, to a place where I now have tools and mechanisms - ones we have developed together, and some I have come up with myself.

Zetta Thomelin
You have been so creative in how you have grasped all of this. You really do work at it - every day, keeping fit, doing your exercises, working with affirmations and visualisations. Where it has taken you is quite remarkable. I see a real blossoming - you have come to life. And while I didn't know you before, what I see now is someone who really knows who she is, what she stands for, and who is far less swayed by other people's expectations. Truly, authentically herself.

One of the things that perhaps created a meaningful connection when we met was that I had experienced neurological issues myself. I had lain in bed thinking, "Will I ever have a life again? Who is this person?" I had been a successful CEO in London, and that was gone. But it led me to becoming a therapist, to writing about therapy and mental health, and took me down a completely different path. That is where our journeys differ slightly. Because I had come through it, I could genuinely believe that you would too. I was trying to lend you that belief - to gift it to you - to help you on your own journey. And sometimes that kind of shared experience can be genuinely helpful. It is that sense of someone truly understanding what it means to be you.

I have watched you arrive at a place of creativity that surpasses anything you had done before. You wrote a song called "Runaway Train" about mental health, which I think is profoundly important. You wrote an entire album processing your grief for your father. And only recently you recorded a video of one of those songs - just you in your kitchen, hair pulled back, singing "Sixteen Months," which is such a powerful piece about grief. You are bringing understanding to other people. Someone who has experienced grief will hear that song and feel seen. Making those songs and videos available so that people can access those feelings and use them to help process their own experiences - that is so important.

Rebecca Robinson
Zetta, I want to be open about the fact that I have never done anything like this before, or spoken about this journey to anyone. I haven't hidden it, but I haven't expressed it either. And I was really keen that this should be a positive message for people. I didn't want to dwell on symptoms or how dreadful things were. I wanted it to be encouraging and uplifting, so that people feel seen in their own times of difficulty, whatever that difficulty might be. And you have shown me that there are ways through. There are mechanisms and tools for getting through even the darkest of times - and everyone who lives long enough will face something like this at some point, whatever name we give it. And there will always be people like you out there to help. I thank God every day for that.

Zetta Thomelin
It is my privilege, Rebecca.

Rebecca Robinson
And every day I use the little mechanisms that help me through. I have my own beliefs - I am not a religious person as such, although I was brought up Catholic, but I do believe in something greater than myself watching over me, and I draw on that. I also find comfort in crystals and stones. I sometimes carry them in my pocket as a reminder. I have a little mascot called Jiminy Cricket that someone gave me years ago. Throughout all the difficult times, I have drawn on things that bring me light and happiness - walks, fitness, meditation, writing, and learning an instrument. That last one has been particularly meaningful, because I struggled at school and always wondered if I might be dyslexic. I carried that with me for years. So for me to pick up an instrument now, alongside the singing I have always loved, feels like a real milestone.

And that is why I want to share this - so that if anything we are talking about today, anything I do or anything Zetta discusses, helps someone think, "If she did it, there is a way forward for me too," then that is what this is all about. When I first came to see you, what struck me was that you understood me, because you had been there yourself. It is about being seen.

Zetta Thomelin
It is about being seen, isn't it? Being seen and understood, and having someone truly recognise your suffering - but not wanting to stay in it. We acknowledge it is there, and then we move forward. I am a firm believer that where there is life, there is hope. We have such power in us. The mind-body connection is incredibly strong, and that is why the language we use matters so much. There is hope for change for everyone, and we need to work with that hope and that self-belief. You have rebuilt yourself to a place of confidence that seems to me to go far beyond where you were before. You have really come into yourself.

Rebecca Robinson
It is interesting, Zetta - when I look at photographs of myself from before all of this happened, I do not recognise her. I have always been a very sensitive person, and I still am. I would describe myself as someone who has tended to people-please, always wanting to do right by everyone. But that sometimes became too much, and my life was going in directions dictated by others rather than by my own choices. I never really had my own opinion. And then what happened, happened, and I had to find myself, because nobody else could do that for me. So I am going to call it a gift. I have to call it a gift, because without this journey, I would not be sitting here with you, and I would not have the understanding of myself that I have now. You have helped me find myself.

Zetta Thomelin
In a way, I feel that the people I work with help me too. It is a mutual journey - I learn from every person I work with. It is a genuine exchange, built on hope and belief together. And I think you have reached a very significant point. It is a lonely road, and it requires you to dig deep, to get to know yourself, and to discover what you are truly capable of. And you survive. You come through it stronger, because you realise the resilience and the inner resources you have always had. Sometimes all that is needed is a little direction in finding them and knowing how to use them. And then you are in a different place entirely on your own personal journey.

Rebecca Robinson
One hundred per cent. I have a different relationship with myself now, and a different relationship with the people I love - family and friends. It has been a profound change, and I suppose it had to be, for me to arrive at this point.

Zetta Thomelin
And I think what you touched on about people-pleasing is really important. A lot of people find themselves stuck in that pattern. When you are seriously ill, you simply do not have the capacity to think about anyone else. And perhaps that teaches you when to say no - and that if we protect ourselves better, we are less likely to find ourselves depleted in that way again. Some people worry about being seen as selfish, but I always come back to the idea of self-awareness and self-care. There are things we can compromise on, and there are things where we need to say no and look after ourselves. When we do that, we are in a much stronger position. Our relationships become more genuine, because we are no longer trying to be something we are not in order to meet other people's expectations. They become more authentic. And I think that is what you are describing - the relationships around you have become better because you are being authentic within yourself.

Rebecca Robinson
Absolutely. I feel I am being truly who I am meant to be, rather than a version of what I think others expect of me.

Zetta Thomelin
And that is why your creativity is so extraordinary - because you are fully tapping into it.

Rebecca Robinson
That is exactly right. Yesterday I sat with my guitar and worked on "Sixteen Months," the song I wrote about losing my father, from the album I wrote in 2021. Even though I was not in a good place at the time, someone helped me produce the backing. And there I was, sitting in the kitchen, hair pulled back, barely any make-up on, playing through the chords. It was completely raw. And I feel now that everything I do, I want to do for others, not for the sake of projecting a perfect image. I am still learning the instrument, but I am enjoying it. And if sharing that rawness - that honest version of who I am and what I have been through - can help others feel that they can do the same, then that is everything.

Zetta Thomelin
I think you are absolutely right. The world is so full of artifice at the moment. People are hungry for something real, something authentic. They recognise it when they see it, and they reach out towards it because it gives them something to hold on to. That is what we hope today has been - something real, something that gives people sustenance and hope for their own journey. They may be in the place that either of us was in some years ago. But there is a way forward. I wish someone had told me that when I was in my darkest place - that one day I would have a completely different and far more fulfilling life than the one I had before. So let us give that message of hope to anyone who is suffering, whether physically or emotionally. There is hope. Change is possible. Sometimes you may need to find your own way, and sometimes a loved one or a professional will help you. But whatever it takes, reach out for that support and start the journey. Start that fight back, because you do not have to stay where you are.

There are so many examples of people who have done exactly that. When Celine Dion sang at the opening ceremony of the Paris Olympics, she had not sung in public for so long, and she chose the biggest possible stage to come back to. If it had gone wrong, so be it. She took that risk. You have taken that risk. We all take those risks. Being seen, whatever happens - if it goes wrong, it goes wrong. But we are going to give it a go. And that is it. That is living. That is what it is all about.

Rebecca Robinson
I was completely there with her. And as a singer myself, I felt what she was feeling. Because I too have been on that kind of journey, as have you. When I have performed recently - I live in Deal in Kent, and the Royal Marines have held what they call the Freedom of Deal since the terrible bombing in 1987 - they perform on the bandstand, and I have been fortunate enough to be the warm-up act on and off since 2011. To be back on that stage at such an event was a real honour. And standing there this year, I had a moment of realising - I am back. And everything looked clearer, and I was seeing it from a completely different perspective. All those dreams and aspirations, all those ideas about how we want to be seen - and there I was, just allowing myself to be exactly as I am.

Real connection. And if someone watching sees that and it inspires them or helps them - that is what we are here for. And your journey, Zetta - beyond the hypnotherapy and the conversations and the guidance - knowing that you had been on a journey, not identical to mine, but similar in the devastation of it, the effects of it - meant that when you said to me, "You are going to do this. You are going to get there. You can do this" - I held onto that. Whatever I was experiencing, I kept coming back to it. I kept replaying affirmations, writing things down, journalling, reaffirming at every moment. I refused to read anything online about my condition, any forums or discussions. I chose to surround myself with things that give me hope, happiness and a sense of fulfilment. And this is what I hope these kinds of conversations and connections can do for people.

Zetta Thomelin
That is exactly the point. It is about belief - having others believe in you, but also learning to believe in yourself, which is perhaps the most important thing of all. And you have raised something really valuable about protecting yourself from negative input. Reading about your condition online, absorbing other people's worst experiences - that feeds fear. And we do not want to feed fear. We want to dampen it down and build belief, faith and hope instead. That is the positive path, and that is what we are choosing.

Rebecca Robinson
And it is very powerful. Positivity and the power of suggestion are extraordinarily powerful. Tapping into that feeling of - I can do this. I am doing it. I will do it. I have done it. All of it matters.

Zetta Thomelin
Absolutely. Thank you so much, Rebecca. Thank you for sharing your journey with me today, and for letting us share it with the world. I hope it brings hope to someone who needs it.

Rebecca Robinson
Thank you for giving me the space to share it. I cannot thank you enough. I wish everybody well, and I am sending lots of love. Thank you, Zetta. Goodbye for now.

Zetta Thomelin
Hi, I am Zetta Thomelin. I am here today with Sheila Terry Bailey. Sheila and I worked together some years ago, and we're just going to talk a little today about her journey into recovery and triumph over some really challenging times. Sheila is, without doubt, one of the most inspiring women I have ever met, professionally and personally, an incredible story. And that's why I wanted to share it. So, Sheila, we first met sometime after you'd been contacted by Operation Yewtree in relation to the Jimmy Savile inquiry, which must have opened up wounds that you'd really tried to push down, I would imagine. Is that the case? What happened in that moment?

Sheila Terry Bailey
That's a bit of an understatement. It was definitely like opening up wounds I'd never spoken about, never mentioned to anybody. I mean, I was fifty-five years old when I got the letter. So I'd kept everything inside of me and it just... I used to call it a can of snakes. It wasn't a can of worms -it just went crazy.

Sheila Terry Bailey
The reports I gave to the police, um, I ended up doing three different county police interviews. Surrey, Hampshire and London. It just went crazy. And I can remember, when I got the letter from the police, I was shaking so much when I read it. I can remember when I did actually read it a little while later, because I couldn't read it all at first, thinking, if that was my children, what would I do?

Zetta Thomelin
Yeah. Yeah.

Sheila Terry Bailey
And that's what made me contact the police, and then open up that can of snakes.

Zetta Thomelin
Isn't it interesting how we can fight for someone else in a way we often can't fight for ourselves, particularly in situations like that? If it's happening to someone else, you think -but when it's you, it's so much harder. When I think about people like Jimmy Savile, it's like they do this thing of trying to make you feel special, and then they exploit it. And that leaves you with really complex feelings, doesn't it? And I think that happens whether the person is famous or not.

Zetta Thomelin
It's how those kinds of predators operate, isn't it?

Sheila Terry Bailey
Yeah, definitely. And that's what he did with me when he came to Duncroft. I was like the special one, first of all being taken to the Clunk Click shows at the BBC and things. And then all of a sudden it stopped, for some reason. I don't know why, and I just broke. I started running away. I didn't want to be there anymore.

Zetta Thomelin
And of course, this start in life, with that awful experience with him, led to really tough times for you. Early experiences like that influence life. You had tough times, further assaults, experiences with drugs, and ultimately a short spell in prison. Incredible tough times. But I actually want to focus on the triumph over that, because you've come through all of it to become somebody else. You've fought back. You weren't going to be defined by it. You are a mother to lovely daughters, with grandchildren with whom you have a great bond. So what was the turning point for you?

Zetta Thomelin
When things were really tough, when did that turn around for you?

Sheila Terry Bailey
It was getting that letter, because I'd done so much prior to that. I always sort of knew there was something different or wrong with me, and then getting that letter, it's like I just said about my children.

Zetta Thomelin
So that was the catalyst. You'd had some kind of support and therapy before, but this was the point at which life really changed direction for you.

Sheila Terry Bailey
Yes, big time. The only way I could explain what was in my head, you know how they say you get two voices in your head? I must have had thousands of voices in my head, with all these thoughts and feelings coming back to me, because I knew what I was going to have to do after doing some of the interviews with the police and opening up completely. I'd never done that with anybody.

Zetta Thomelin
That must have been so scary, really. And what courage.

Sheila Terry Bailey
I don't know how I got through it. I think, in hindsight, looking back on it, I wasn't as aware of my emotions as I am now. So I can remember being able to go into, like...

Zetta Thomelin
We do talk about dissociation. It's classic for people with trauma to dissociate, you distance yourself from emotion. I remember when we were working together, you were saying you wanted to be able to cry.

Zetta Thomelin
And now you can, you know. And it's part of that process, holding the emotion through. I guess it's too scary, isn't it? It's like a fear that the dam might break and you might not stop. When we worked together, I remember a key moment: I sat down and wrote a story about you, focusing on all the amazing things I had learned about you. That you'd worked with addicts trying to help them recover, that you'd done some training to help addicts, that you were going into a homeless shelter on Christmas Day and cooking food. You were doing all these things. You fought to keep your children during really difficult times in your life, and to be a good mum to them. And I remember thinking that you'd given back to a society that I felt had not been there for you.

Zetta Thomelin
And you'd done this with incredible courage. I was very struck by your courage. So I wrote this piece about you -about three thousand words -and then you sat back with your eyes closed, and I read it out to you. I wrote it in the third person: "I want to tell you about a woman I know. This woman is incredible; she did this and she did that." And I will never forget the moment when you opened your eyes and said, "Oh my goodness, that's me." Because when we're in our heads, we see all the suffering, the difficulty, and what we've got wrong, this negative bias. And I wanted you to see the woman that I saw: this courageous, strong, incredible woman who'd come through really tough challenges to live an amazing life, bring up children, have grandchildren, and have relationships with them. I remember wanting to give that to you.

Zetta Thomelin
And your response to that was really heartwarming to me. Do you remember that moment?

Sheila Terry Bailey
I do. I do. It was a shock, yeah, it was a shock. It was like seeing myself in a completely different light to how I'd always seen myself.

Zetta Thomelin
It's something that I think really helps us sometimes, to step outside ourselves and see what someone else sees, something very different to what we think we see. And I remember you asked me for a copy of it to give to your children, to help them see you as more than just "Mum." And -I didn't know at the time -it ended up in my book. What's really exciting is that moment with your children where they start to see you as more than just "Mum," because I think that's a really important moment, especially when someone's struggled so much.

Zetta Thomelin
This leads us to now, really. I remember you said you'd been approached by a podcaster, and I thought -wow, this is your moment to have your say publicly. It's a way of getting your power back, isn't it? To tell your story, to have your say. But I was also a little scared, because I thought, oh gosh, I want them to treat her right. But you did it. It was a huge success. How did that feel?

Sheila Terry Bailey
Well, when I'd done the podcast, I had the message for a couple of months before I answered Sean. I was like, oh goodness, who is this? What is this? Is it a scam or whatever? And I answered him -I'd never met him before -did the podcast. He came in, had a little chat to me, and he was so good. It was so good.

Zetta Thomelin
It was so sensitively handled. Obviously I saw it afterwards, and I thought -he got it right, didn't he? How many views has it had now?

Sheila Terry Bailey
Ninety-six and a half thousand.

Zetta Thomelin
That's incredible. Isn't it?

Sheila Terry Bailey
Yeah, and it's two and a half hours long, for goodness' sake!

Zetta Thomelin
So in a way, you're a voice for the other people who haven't spoken out, or haven't been able to, maybe they're still not alive, sadly, to speak out. You're a voice for them too, aren't you?

Sheila Terry Bailey
Definitely. And I've had quite a lot of people message me saying I've helped them with my story, that it's helped them open up. I've had some lovely feedback. And I've been recognised three times.

Zetta Thomelin
Gosh, that's amazing. A celebrity now! I think that's the thing, isn't it? If you tell your story, it helps someone else who hasn't been able to tell theirs, they feel understood; in a way, you're giving them a voice. And when they hear what's happened to you, it makes them feel not so alone. So, when we were working together, you were already writing your book, and then after the podcast, that's when it really came to fruition. You finally had your full say -Surviving Savile. Anyone in the world can now...

Zetta Thomelin
...read your story and hopefully be really inspired by it. Knowing you as I do, you're a beacon of hope to anyone who's had struggles, who's experienced abuse or drug issues or any of those things. You give hope that there's life after that. And you've got this incredible family relationship with your grandchildren. So how has it been to get the book out? It feels like the next stage on from the podcast, doesn't it?

Sheila Terry Bailey
Um, yeah. I mean, I didn't know it had happened. Sean had messaged me but I'd not seen the email. I was down at my fish pond when Victoria rang me and she said, "Have you read your email?" And I was like, "No." She said, "The book's out!" And there was me, down at the bottom of the garden by my fish pond. It's real. I am still pinching myself, because all my life I've written little snippets. My daughters always said to me, "You should write a book." And now it's done and it's out there, and anybody can read it. Fingers crossed, it helps.

Sheila Terry Bailey
Oh, I mean...

Zetta Thomelin
I don't think anyone could read your story and not be, firstly, very moved, and secondly, inspired. So what do you feel are the biggest changes in you over this period of time, where you've got your life to where you want it to be?

Sheila Terry Bailey
October 2013, just letting it all out, talking about it. Continuously. The only way I can explain it is: I feel like somebody's gone in through my throat, into my stomach, and taken out this great big heavy weight. Lighter.

Zetta Thomelin
Because I know you've had a lot of health problems over the years, do you feel physically a bit better? Because I think it weighs you down, doesn't it?

Sheila Terry Bailey
Definitely, on the mental side. I've certainly realised that when things were bad, just issues in life -the mental side of it really affects my body.

Zetta Thomelin
Yes. We can underestimate that mind-body connection.

Sheila Terry Bailey
Oh, big time.

Zetta Thomelin
It's something like twenty-five per cent of people with trauma have medically undiagnosed symptoms, pain and things they can't explain. And about fifty per cent of people with life trauma have pain of some sort. So if you don't give voice to it, it's going to find a way to express your distress, isn't it?

Sheila Terry Bailey
Yeah, because this morning I was a bit anxious about doing this. I can feel my feelings now, and where they should be. The back of my neck, I get it there.

Zetta Thomelin
Yes, in the back of the neck. It's expressing your discomfort. Mm-hmm. And yes, the biggest thing we can draw from this is that secrecy doesn't help; bottling things up doesn't help. And I think when it involves such a public figure as Savile, to get the recognition that you suffered and that you survived is really important, isn't it? Because it's happening so often now, we keep hearing about yet another, yet another, yet another. Ever since the whole Yewtree inquiry, there has been a constant stream of new revelations. And hopefully this means...

Zetta Thomelin
...young women and girls today are safer because of the battles that people like you, Sheila, have undertaken.

Sheila Terry Bailey
And men as well.

Zetta Thomelin
And men too. Yes, I am really sorry, I should have said that.

Sheila Terry Bailey
I'm thinking about the men as well. You know what I mean?

Zetta Thomelin
Yes, absolutely. Well, what a journey, and what a triumph! I am hoping lots of people read your book to really understand the depth of the journey you've been on. I didn't want to get into too much detail about that today, because I want to talk about your triumph, how incredible this journey has been for you. But it's been a tough one, and I would never underestimate how tough.

Sheila Terry Bailey
And can I just say as well, all this time, I'd had lots of psychotherapy, CBT counselling, all sorts over the years. But when I came to you and had the NLP hypnotherapy, that's when things started to change up here as well.

Zetta Thomelin
Oh, thank you. You didn't have to say that, but thank you.

Sheila Terry Bailey
I'm glad, I just wanted to let people know.

Zetta Thomelin
But you did the work. I can just point the way -you did the work. And you are just a shining beacon of hope to anyone, I think. And I am glad we stayed in touch. Every now and again you'll send me a little email and tell me how well things are going. I love that, because when you work with someone therapeutically, they go off and live their life and you never hear how the story develops and changes. You've kept in touch, and that's been lovely. And now it's very much in the public domain, I see things and think, oh, I know her! I know that celebrity -that's Sheila!

Sheila Terry Bailey
That's what my window cleaner said. He said, "I'm going to buy a book and get you to sign it, look, I know this famous lady!" Can I show my book?

Zetta Thomelin
Please do, yeah! So, that's you, that's...

Sheila Terry Bailey
Me on the front there. That was actually at Duncroft, with Duncroft in the background, and I think you can just about see his yellow Rolls-Royce there.

Zetta Thomelin
Which was what he did, he'd pick people up in the Rolls-Royce to make them feel special.

Sheila Terry Bailey
It's all part of his persona, wasn't it? Yeah. Very clever.

Zetta Thomelin
Yeah. And it was such a shock. I mean, obviously I didn't know anything about the abuse until it all came out. I used to watch Jim'll Fix It, I remember writing a letter to him. I wanted to meet some celebrity, I don't know who it was. Luckily, I didn't get picked. I thought, oh, what a shame I didn't get picked. And now I think I was one of the lucky ones.

Sheila Terry Bailey
Yeah. And that's why we thought it was so fantastic, there were these girls in this home, and this great big star comes in. Wonderful.

Zetta Thomelin
And that's it, isn't it, targeting people who need attention, who are feeling vulnerable, who aren't in a loving family setting. The most vulnerable people to target. And that's the most disgusting thing about it, homing in on the people who are going to be the most vulnerable, who need affection and to be made to feel special. It's shocking. And shocking that it still goes on today, sadly.

Zetta Thomelin
But I think people are wiser now. The more publicity we can give to exposing these behaviours, the more young women and young men can protect themselves. And hopefully one day, this won't be a story we need to tell anymore. So thank you, Sheila, for talking to me today. I'm just thrilled about how things are for you, with the family and everything. Thank you.

Sheila Terry Bailey
I'm grateful to you. Thank you very much.